KLM

[Severn]

Out of interest how many KLM City Hopper aircraft currently night stop in UK?

I only ask because would a fleet of 8-10x Embraer 190’s operated by Eastern Airways cover KLM City Hopper’s current UK network.

If so this might actually be the rebirth of KLM UK or Air UK being set by AF/KLM group. We know they are looking to cut costs and man power so would it be cheaper to operate with UK based crews coming home every night instead of having expensive nightstops and remove engineering from Amsterdam to Humberside.

Looking at the second week of November, KLM will serve 17x UK airports and will have aircraft night-stopping at 13x of them.
KLM will overnight in 6x UK airports: LHR, MAN, BHX, NCL, EDI & GLA.
KLM Cityhopper will overnight in 7x UK airports: BRS, LBA, NWI, MME, HUY, ABZ and BHD
KLM will also serve 4x UK airports, but will not overnight: LCY, CWL, SOU & INV

Out of the 7x UK airports that KLM Cityhopper will overnight at, 3x will be Eastern based E190s: BRS, MME & HUY.
LBA and NWI would be obvious choices for more Eastern bases, but after that I'm not sure (possibly ABZ, but it would be a downgrade from the current E295).

Below is a table showing KLMs total weekly departures and seats from the UK in November:

 

[Finger66]

As Eastern already have either 2 or 3 E-jets already operating for KLCH, the extra numbers they are rumoured to be wanting would give them back ups as well.

I think the big worry here for me is Eastern's track record however I am sure KLM are putting many operational stipulations into any contracts. But that said, if Eastern do fail to deliver, where are KLCH going to find the capacity shortfall at short notice.

All this is clearly part of KLM's cost savings and it will be interesting to see if T3 end up with a name change as a result, however I believe RL is not one for accepting outside interference when it comes to his baby so not particular expecting anything on that front, but money could end up talking.

What is evident is that just maybe, Eastern have finally found a focus and will stop playing with a bit here and a bit there.

Certainly means fewer and fewer T3 ops in their own right.

Interesting times ahead.

 

[White Heather]

Looking at the second week of November, KLM will serve 17x UK airports and will have aircraft night-stopping at 13x of them.
KLM will overnight in 6x UK airports: LHR, MAN, BHX, NCL, EDI & GLA.
KLM Cityhopper will overnight in 7x UK airports: BRS, LBA, NWI, MME, HUY, ABZ and BHD
KLM will also serve 4x UK airports, but will not overnight: LCY, CWL, SOU & INV

Out of the 7x UK airports that KLM Cityhopper will overnight at, 3x will be Eastern based E190s: BRS, MME & HUY.
LBA and NWI would be obvious choices for more Eastern bases, but after that I'm not sure (possibly ABZ, but it would be a downgrade from the current E295).

Below is a table showing KLMs total weekly departures and seats from the UK in November:
View attachment 31424

This table graphically illustrates how KLMs seat offering from LBA has reduced in recent times. Less seats than both MME and HUY and barely more than NWI isn't acceptable considering LBA is a 4m+ pax airport. Instead of increasing due to the reported demand, it's slowly getting worse. There must be considerable unserved demand for AMS from LBA, both point to point and interlining with KLM.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

This table graphically illustrates how KLMs seat offering from LBA has reduced in recent times. Less seats than both MME and HUY and barely more than NWI isn't acceptable considering LBA is a 4m+ pax airport. Instead of increasing due to the reported demand, it's slowly getting worse. There must be considerable unserved demand for AMS from LBA, both point to point and interlining with KLM.

Presumably KLM dont think there is the demand. Seems strange.

 

[Len Fish]

The danger is if this does save KLM money then we’ll get a service on the cheap from an airline with an unenviable track record with inevitable results.

 

[jason1-11]

It's the potential loss of CAT3 equipment that's my major concern. Reliability is crucial for interlining operations, and we all know how poor the BHD and DUB EI services are in the Autumn, Winter and Spring months.

 

[White Heather]

It's the potential loss of CAT3 equipment that's my major concern. Reliability is crucial for interlining operations, and we all know how poor the BHD and DUB EI services are in the Autumn, Winter and Spring months.

Well if the KLM CH aircraft are Cat 3 and Eastern are not, let's hope that's a reason they leave LBA alone and continue with KLM. There again , hopefully Eastern will source 195s that are Cat3. Fog isn't unique to LBA and a route that is predominantly a KLM hub connection can't afford to have passengers missing connections due to fog - at either end of whatever route.

 

[Finger66]

Amsterdam itself suffers it's fair share of weather issues

 

[pug]

It's the potential loss of CAT3 equipment that's my major concern. Reliability is crucial for interlining operations, and we all know how poor the BHD and DUB EI services are in the Autumn, Winter and Spring months.

Isn’t the determining factor as to whether an aircraft can land Cat III or not just down to crew training/currency? All Cat IIII is is essentially a reduced minima using normal ILS equipment (plus auto land capability with the E-Jets are equipped with Cat3a), i.e I could go out in a Seneca now but if the minima was below Cat I I wouldn’t be permitted to fly to a lower minima because I would be operating as a single pilot. The aircraft would be capable of guiding me below that, though it doesn’t have an autoland function.

 

[jason1-11]

Isn’t the determining factor as to whether an aircraft can land Cat III or not just down to crew training/currency? All Cat IIII is is essentially a reduced minima using normal ILS equipment (plus auto land capability with the E-Jets are equipped with Cat3a), i.e I could go out in a Seneca now but if the minima was below Cat I I wouldn’t be permitted to fly to a lower minima because I would be operating as a single pilot. The aircraft would be capable of guiding me below that, though it doesn’t have an autoland function.

I was told albeit a few years ago, that Eastern crews were only certified for CAT2 (minima) ops regardless if the aircraft had Cat 3A capabilities. Hopefully that may have changed now they are in bed with the big boys - Air France / KLM.

 

[pug]

I was told albeit a few years ago, that Eastern crews were only certified for CAT2 (minima) ops regardless if the aircraft had Cat 3A capabilities. Hopefully that may have changed now they are in bed with the big boys - Air France / KLM.

They haven’t had many CATIIIA capable aircraft until now so if they need approval to do it they’d probably go for that now due to the growth in the fleet and type of operation they appear to be building up to. It’ll depend on business need, I’ve know some large airlines having to divert because the crew weren’t for an approach to lower minima so it’s not just an Eastern issue.

 

[Finger66]

So we now have our one weekly of our overall KLM schedule op by T3 with an expectation more will follow. There is interesting and increasing speculation on thez Dried Fruit Forum (I must stress speculation) regarding the AF/KL involvement in T3 and the longer term plan. It is also stating that 3 or 4 current KL E190s will be transferred to T3, which I suppose is what is ultimately increasing speculation. Is this a no smoke without fire scenario though

 

[AirBingley]

So we now have our one weekly of our overall KLM schedule op by T3 with an expectation more will follow. There is interesting and increasing speculation on thez Dried Fruit Forum (I must stress speculation) regarding the AF/KL involvement in T3 and the longer term plan. It is also stating that 3 or 4 current KL E190s will be transferred to T3, which I suppose is what is ultimately increasing speculation. Is this a no smoke without fire scenario though

The biggest issue with T3 is if there is a delay, the crew dont have access to real time rebooking like the KL crews do on their i pads and the T3 crews dont give any connection information so if you're on a tight connection it can be problematic. Surely if its a long term game KL and T3 will be addressing this.

 

[Finger66]

The biggest issue with T3 is if there is a delay, the crew dont have access to real time rebooking like the KL crews do on their i pads and the T3 crews dont give any connection information so if you're on a tight connection it can be problematic. Surely if its a long term game KL and T3 will be addressing this.

You would certainly like to think so. If there isn't a long term plan in all this, it's one h**l of a commitment on T3's part and I for one am expecting further developments in all this. For the record I am in no way in the know, it's purely a personal view and hence my comment in my previous post about whether this was a no smoke without fire scenario

 

[pug]

You would certainly like to think so. If there isn't a long term plan in all this, it's one h**l of a commitment on T3's part and I for one am expecting further developments in all this. For the record I am in no way in the know, it's purely a personal view and hence my comment in my previous post about whether this was a no smoke without fire scenario

RL is an opportunist, and has made £millions out of selling and buying back Eastern in the past. Call it wishful thinking but I like the idea of KLM purchasing shares in Eastern and resurrecting the KLM UK brand. It could provide more assurances whilst also holding Eastetn to account a bit.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

RL is an opportunist, and has made £millions out of selling and buying back Eastern in the past. Call it wishful thinking but I like the idea of KLM purchasing shares in Eastern and resurrecting the KLM UK brand. It could provide more assurances whilst also holding Eastetn to account a bit.

My initial reaction is that its deeply disappointing that KLM want (apparently) to sever a direct relationship with UK provincial airports thay theyve had for several decades.

 

[pug]

My initial reaction is that its deeply disappointing that KLM want (apparently) to sever a direct relationship with UK provincial airports thay theyve had for several decades.

They don’t appear to want to do that. The links they’ve had for several decades are born out of the Air UK days which invariably included another long defunct regional airline based in the U.K. that they effectively saved by taking over and incorporating into the KLM network. I’d like to think that something similar is happening here.. If it isn’t then I would be worried about the long term implications.

 

[Ian Gratton]

Embraer 190’s PH-EXC,PH-EXD and PH-EZZ will transfer from KLM to Eastern. Will be interesting to see if they remain in KLM colours with just Eastern titles or they will be painted white like the curremt 190’s

 

[BCFC]

I wouldn't book a flight with KLM from LBA no matter what….just seems to be going from bad to bad bad.

 

[LBA787]

If it is true, Eastern is not great, which would be a major disappointment, and MAN all the while welcomes KLM's brand new A321neo…