Primera Air

[GliderPilot]

I suspect behind closed doors there was a collective sigh of relief when they withdrew the MAN slots.

Why would an airport award the slots if it didn't want the airline there? You're more than likely exactly correct but it doesn't make logical sense to me that an airport would give an airline slots when they don't want them there

 

[jfy1999]

Why would an airport award the slots if it didnt want the airline there?...

It might not have been a case of MAN awarding slots but of Primera bidding for empty slots - maybe as a bargaining chip in its BHX negotiations.

 

[GliderPilot]

It might not have been a case of MAN awarding slots but of Primera bidding for empty slots - maybe as a bargaining chip in its BHX negotiations.

Fair point, I'm enjoying this debate, well balanced.

So in essence that could be Primera, for example, trying to get BHX to come down on prices? Almost scaremongering the airport into thinking the airline will go elsewhere if they don't?

Fierce tactics then...

 

[Jerry]

According to this article they've said they have no TATL plans for MAN but are looking to the west.

 

[58terminus]

Just out of interest does anybody know how many of their new aircraft have they taken delivery of?
Or should i say have been handed over by the leasing company who i presume would want a good chunk up front?

 

[Otisblue]

58t, 3 with a 4th due shortly. the 4th one carried out a Customer Acceptance flight in the last few days

 

[Coathanger16]

It might not have been a case of MAN awarding slots but of Primera bidding for empty slots - maybe as a bargaining chip in its BHX negotiations.

Is it just me that find's it strange that Primera would use one MAG airport to get a better deal from BHX when they currently also fly from another MAG airport.

 

[Kevin Farnell]

Is it just me that find's it strange that Primera would use one MAG airport to get a better deal from BHX when they currently also fly from another MAG airport.

Firstly, it is just speculation that Primera Air have played their cards in this manner. Although it's not uncommon - Airlines and Airports are run as businesses and each will be trying to maximise their return for their owners/shareholders, whilst trying to provide a very competitive product.
It would make no sense for Primera Air to use STN as a bargaining tool to gain lower costs at BHX, as they already operate those TATL routes from STN. The alternative MAG airports are MAN and EMA. If EMA were to gain TATL flights from BHX, this would surely show the monopoly that MAG has and may result in an enquiry, and MAG's break up (something I believe should happen - I'm all for fair competition, but the emphasis must be on 'fair'. There is no competition between MAN and STN, but MAN, STN and EMA all compete with BHX).
So, this leaves MAN. An airport with an already extenisive TATL network but an airport that BHX constantly has to battle against. Is this the card that Primera Air played? Will we ever know?
Will Primera Air have a presence at BHX in 2019? and if so, will any routes be TATL?

Kevin

 

[Ray Finkle]

Slot requests are not unusual and can often happen even when the airline in question has no intention of using them. I suppose that there could be a whole host of reasons why and for all we know it could simply have been a way of securing extra slots at EWR and IAD? At the slot constrained airports in the UK (including MAN) ACL are the organisation employed to coordinate their allocation and do so following set guidelines and procedures.

As far as I am aware an airport is not in a position to refuse the presence of an airline. The airport company provide the infrastructure and the airlines then decide whether or not they will use it. As long as the relevant permissions are in place an airline is free to open up a new route to where it sees fit. One recent example was Birmingham ending up with four airlines to Madrid and some sighs of relief when one of the services was dropped, if they had been in a position to limit airlines on the route maybe they would have but it's not an option.

Obviously airports can have an influence on where airlines choose to fly by providing them with data of the demand from their region and making persuasive arguments about how much revenue could be made. Incentives can also be offered to new airlines or on routes that are unserved or where extra capacity is needed. Now it's only my opinion but I would be very surprised if MAN approached Primera to start transatlantic flights. Thomas Cook are doing phenomenal things there so why would they risk spoiling it? I also don't buy that they are/were trying to scupper Primera at BHX, we've had services to New York and Toronto for as long as I can remember and it hasn't stopped growth up there, why would A321's from an unknown airline suddenly be such a threat?

As for short haul, Malaga from MAN is on an away based aircraft and looked to me to be an expansion of their AGP base. They said that they saw an opportunity after the collapse of Monarch so it kind of makes sense.

An article in TTG is suggesting they will be in TATL from BHX in 2019

I had this thought a few weeks ago.

Primera said that they saw a short haul opportunity after the end of Monarch and kind of jumped in at short notice. What if it hasn't worked out as planned so they've decided to drop it but are carrying on their long haul as planned? After all that has happened would they try again from Birmingham in 2019?

If so I do hope that they have a very capable PR department.

 

[Just Birmingham]

Well done Ray for adding some technical insight to proceedings.

Imotive language such as "Manchester clasping their hands together" and "eyes gleaming" really is the biggest load of tosh it's ever been my displeasure to read on the Birmingham forum.

Manchester cannot prevent Primera applying but "welcoming them with open arms"

Someone is in cloud cuckoo land !

 

[mullion]

Thanks Ray for your comments which totally confirms what I am hearing at the Manchester end
Just one thing an airport can refuse to finacially help a starter airline if they think it is going to be
detremental to an incumbent one

 

[GliderPilot]

Primera has made a real mess.

Can they recover a reputation that has reached this low?

I dread to look at the amount of backlash on their twitter

I know i wouldn’t trust them with my time and money, and as you’ve probably seen i’m very passionate about my local airport.

So why would the general public spend theirs when much more “secure” flights are on either end of the M6/M1

They’ve set themselves one massive hurdle to secure a consistent customer base for TATL ops with a reputation that could be beyond recovery...

Good luck!

I’ll believe in it when i see a Primera A321Neo under the arch on its inaugural

 

[mullion]

Glider Pilot , I was being a tad sarcastic about the Ethiopian yesterday,no hard feelings and lets
get on with enjoying aviation., perhaps if we could all forget Primera ever came to the UK

 

[GliderPilot]

perhaps if we could all forget Primera ever came to the UK

Now that would be a happy ending

 

[Ianbutty]

Wow. Like the weather good to see the best turning down a bit.

Primera saw an opportunity but as with all business development if you cannpt service an opportunity with, in this instance, aircraft, then the opportunity falls. They screwed up. Not BHX's fault. Not MAG's. Primera's fault. Lessons learned. If they come back in 2019 with TATL routes and more importantly given the business they are in, the aircraft to fly those routes, then all well and good and we can get behind them and cheer then to success.

As for Hainan, MANs team had been working on the route for years but its announcement came whilst the Chinese president was in MAN with the local MP who also happened to be the Chancellor. That was after Hainan had announced scheduled flights to BHX. I think it was the former Chancellor who lost that route from BHX and not MAN. And the service has been a success so well done.

It is politics and it is the way it is. BHX would do alot better if it sorted out its CEO. The very successful top team has been blown apart and I know the current team are doing their damndest, but they need stability and a return to ambition.

Take a leaf out of MANs book be ambitious and over expand and watch the new arrivals arrive. I forgot who said it but Manchester was once described as an airport with a city attached.

We also focus on our future economic growth necessary to support the Midlanss engine and that will come from the Indian Sub Continent.

 

[Jerry]

They’ve set themselves one massive hurdle to secure a consistent customer base for TATL ops with a reputation that could be beyond recovery...

A lot of people will forget about them especially non frequent fliers and i wonder if a winter break will help with that but their problem may be that the regular trans atlantic fliers won't and may well be wary of using them especially the ones who would be more likely to use their Premium product.

 

[mullion]

Ianbutty Manchester for a few years took their foot of the accelerator now it seems suddenly
(but I`m sure its not) all the work seems to be coming to fruition but that may well be because
the speed at which Manchester and Salford and now the the towns around have have grown
in the business market. I used to work in the city centre and now go drinking in the centre every couple
weeks and just cannot keep up with change, but I guess this is really for another thread

 

[Deleted member 8862]

BUT, if Primera do offer a 2019 TATL programme with the right pricing structure, (aka Laker style),

they will get customers of that you can be certain.

How many people have said never or never again about a product or service, but if there's none other

available they will use it...

 

[Brum X]

Is it just me that find's it strange that Primera would use one MAG airport to get a better deal from BHX when they currently also fly from another MAG airport.

Or if they have given Primera Air a better deal, maybe they should be on the phones to both AA/UA and offer them a better deal than what they had. Well you never know.

 

[Creguk]

So I am looking for flights to Malaga for one week at the end of August and these cowboys are coming out cheapest... Do I dare to book?!