British Airways

[leedsman]

All I am saying is - now is the time to get behind the Heathrow route, get booking up for the months ahead and show BA ' we need and want this route'.

Couldn't have said it better myself, the simple answer is getting behind the service. The times might not be perfect at the moment, but with the support of the local major population/business centres, it will make for a much stronger case in improving the times in the future.

Surely, having a 3 daily service with decent loads, is much better in the long run sustainability, than having a 4 daily with thinner load factors. New routes take time to build up, and probably even more so when starting in early winter. I am being optimistic that this will snowball, and loads will become much stronger as more people become aware of the service / use it.

Already booked for next year, return trips on LBA-ZRH, and also cashed in AA miles for LBA to Hawaii. It's now in the hands of the several million people who reside in the LBA catchment to get booking !!

 

[Aviador]

User001

Thus far we are only 4 days into the operation so I would say you are jumping to conclusions.

 

[ridgeback]

You seem pretty well informed user001 so you'll no doubt be aware of the figs on the BA1409 that leaves MAN every night at 2140?

40-50? I don't think so.

And MAN is an established route of decades standing not 3 days.

 

[ridgeback]

It's a good debate this but I get really tired of the knockers who assume this whole thing is some wind up just to get at Yorkshire people. It is not.

BA have a lot of SH slots (that will never be that good for LH) and SH a/c that they acquired from BD. these slots were collateral to the LH useful slots that were the real prize. Post acquisition they had to put these slots/a/c to use esp as a lot were at the time used on existing BA routes.

It was brought to BA's attention that BD used to be very busy on LHR-LBA - I personally remember 5 flts per day followed by 4 for many years that all had very healthy loads and were never that cheap either. They were as noted above very well timed - almost ideally timed. KLM have done very well in BD's absence and the fact is that Amsterdam not being London, the majority of people on the KLM flights are transfer - this is what BA SH is primarily about - feeding people in to fill up the LH jets so BA have done their research and are trying that market.

Slots are a massive problem at LHR. Not so at AMS, they build new runways for fun, we don't and as such our national carrier can not offer the times it would like or else it would. Consider that NCL which always had an 0630 Southbound now has to make do with 0800. The local are up in arms but its the best that can be offered and NCL is a very established route.

Call me simplistic but we have to support this. If we don't then that's that and no-one else will try.

 

[ridgeback]

Re my above and the S13 schedule:

I personally thought 4 flights from a standing start was too amitious. I also think BA are seeing that the 0700 north will always be quiet - not that many London business folk clamouring to get to a desk in Leeds by 0830 and the 2100 south will be double dead but MAN has an identical service with identical loads fwiw.

S13:
LHR 0940 - LBA 1040
Perfect for inbound long haulers (& indeed SH) to connect on to LBA - a vast improvement on 0700/1100. Pretty much same time as old BD412 actually.

LBA 1135 - LHR 1235
Fine for afternoon meetings around West London and perfect for afternoon LH conx to US eg SFO, JFK, BOS, LAX and also some Indian dests. Also will be fine for many leisure point to point.

LHR 1410 - LBA 1510
Mixture of traffic, SH/LH conx included. Lots of west coasts arrive at 11-12ish

LBA 15:50 - LHR 1650
Perfect for connections to South Africa, Soith America, Asia and some late US deps, eg BA 183 JFK.

LHR 1855 - LHR 1955
Some connections and some returning business people (the similar timed one has been showing decent loads this week which is promising)

LBA 2100 - LHR 2200
Will be dead as per its equivalent at MAN

I am happy with 3 over 4 in most ways I just fervently wish BA could find a way to allow that last northbound to nightstops LBA and return to LHR at 0630 the following morning. If it did I think that sold be 3 very well timed flight IMHO.

Ridgeback

 

[Seasider]

It won't help BA with their yield, but I am going to spend my Avios points on a trip to Frankfurt. :hatsoff:

 

[User0001]

User001

Thus far we are only 4 days into the operation so I would say you are jumping to conclusions

Aviador, The flights have already been downgraded, I work for the very department that plans these things, so how can I be jumping to conclusions when:

a) I have the exact figures to hand?
b) the event has already happened?

You seem pretty well informed user001 so you'll no doubt be aware of the figs on the BA1409 that leaves MAN every night at 2140?

40-50? I don't think so.

And MAN is an established route of decades standing not 3 days.

You picked a very bad example there. The 2140 dep to LHR is quiet, but the inbound to MAN is usually well patronised, and often on the bigger A320, hence the flight running. Its obvious such a late departure to London is going to be quiet, as it is one of the last arrivals into LHR, but the aircraft is needed at LHR for the morning euro departures, so apart from position the aircraft back, the loads will always appear low.

 

[ridgeback]

The inbound to LBA (late one) is also doing well. Always in the 50-60's. On day 4 that's good imo.

I also reiterate BA has flown MAN-LHR for decades. It has flown LBA-LHR 16 times. In total. The last 4 days.

Are you seriously saying that because this route isn't at 75% already it is a basket case?

If my previous was a bad example (I disagree) then I'll try again. What is your opinion on the RTM loads?

(For those that don't know BA started RTM on Sunday, just as it did LBA.

This is surely a very fair comparison. I await your thoughts.

 

[White Heather]

When LBA were originally talking with BA about the LHR route commencing, they were expecting no more than 2 return flights a day. Four a day came as a surprise to everyone -and I suspect that includes LBA management. A reduction to three flights next summer is still better than we originally expected and far better than no flights at all. After Christmas is traditionally the time when people start to book travel during the summer so the time when we will get a far better idea as to the demand for this route. As for the timings, I would suggest that BA have been doing the job long enough to know what the best timings are for the market they are trying to serve.

It will be interesting to hear tomorrow at the Consultative Committee what LBA directors think about the route and the forward bookings - and the reduction for next summer. I would imagine they already knew about that before the route launched last Sunday.

 

[a300boy]

i had already booked my bi-annual trip to Oz from Manchester with Singapore Airlines as my last trip was from Heathrow and to get to Heathrow and back in comfort cost about £400 on top of the flights. As I am now a BA pensioner my next trip will be with BA so if we still have a flight I will be on it. I also intend to have at least 2 return trips to Heathrow in the spring so lets give it a chance please.

 

[a300boy]

A319 G-DBCI BA1340 just arrived from Heathrow and must have done a Cat 3 approach and autoland due to lbia weather.

 

[User0001]

If my previous was a bad example (I disagree) then I'll try again

Well it was a bad example, because out of 22 daily flights, you deliberately picked the quietest sector to prove a point? Interesting how you didn't mention, say, the 0720 which had a LF of 96% this morning alone, or the one after at 93%. Funny that......

RTM isn't a stellar performer either at the moment, but its doing better than LBA for yield and slightly higher for loads, and is far from the point as that isn't being reduced, is it?

Are you seriously saying that because this route isn't at 75% already it is a basket case?

No, I, as in me personally, have not said the route is a basket case. Revenue have decided that it isn't quite what they expected, and I am merely passing that info on.

To be honest, I have no idea why you are taking this so personally against me I have not made the decisions, my colleagues have. I cannot understand why you are arguing this case as the changes are already done, and are there for all to see, so its hardly a rumour, is it. Route doing well=continue at current frequency or expand. Route doing poorly=reduce frequency to maximise potential yield, or if very poor, cut and run. Its not a conspiracy you know!

 

[ridgeback]

I'm not taking it personally against you.
I actually stated that I thought 4 was a mistake from the off and that I prefer the look of next summer's 3.

I have no doubt you are correct re early loads/yields but te route is just getting on its feet and I feel your comparisons with a route of 30 years plus standing are unhelpful that's all.

My own view is that this is 60/40 route testing/slot sitting and BA remain at present unconvinced it will stand the test but it will be given every chance.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

I was on the last BA flight to London last night. Total pax was 19.

I counted approx 40 on the inbound.

LbaYorkie

 

[LBAYORKIE]

Last flt fm heathrow tnt 55. Return to heathrow. Only has 2- yes TWO!

 

[channex 757]

Only has 2- yes TWO!

It'll be an easy flight back for the cabin crew onboard then

 

[White Heather]

I made sure this was raised today at the Consultative Committee and the response was directly from the Airport MD. First of all, he was at pains to comment about a lot of 'negativity and rubbish' that he is aware of relating to this route and BA's intentions. He assured the Committee that BA are, from the very top, committed to making the LBA route a success and long term,it is definitely NOT a slot sitter.

He stated that LBA management have attended numerous business meetings and conventions to market the route, some of which have been with BA in attendance. Indeed the BA MD is attending the Leeds Chamber of Commerce Christmas Lunch to give a talk. There are many more such meetings scheduled.

He then commented that the schedules we have are less than ideal. He knows it and so do BA. However, they have inherited BMi slots and there is not much they can do about them. There are now, and have been, conversations about improving timings to make the flights more attractive and to improve connectivity. One significant businessman commented that at the moment the schedules are almost the reverse of what is required and a night stopper is required. It was confirmed that is where LBA wish to get to, but the costs for BA are significantly higher by doing so and clearly at this time, with a new route, they are not prepared to do that. He stated that because of the slot issues the schedules are likely to change several times, as frequency will, until such time as the best scheduling formula is achieved. He was not particuarly concerned at the reduction to 3 return flights. In fact he stated that the aim is to ensure the route is eventually upgraded to an A320, although he did concede that as with all routes, it is a use it or lose it scenario.

Re passenger loads, the comment was that this is probably the worst time of year to start a new route and it is generally accepted that the first and last flights of the day, with current timings, will be poor. Passenger numbers of low 20's were mentioned on equivalent flights out of MAN - an established route. BA would rather do this than night stop at this time. He stated that some flights had already carried up to 70 pax which isn't too bad considering it's a new route and this time of year.

Overall the comments were positive but realistic. Everyone knows what schedules are required but the slots are not available to operate them at this time. It was mentioned that the 0630 BA shuttle from NCL, for many years a busy flight, had been axed due to slot demands, and their first flight South is not until 0810, so this is not simply an LBA issue.

Perhaps we should all stop looking now for the gloom and doom of a route that is precisely 5 days old?

 

[LBAYORKIE]

I think the problem is that we are a bit emotional when it come you OUR airport and if we think that someone ie BA is not giving it their best shot we almost take it personally.

One thing that has not been mentioned yet, and here I go getting a little critical, is that the advertising for the service has been very poor. I would think some TV ads would be a good investment.

Also, does anyone else think the BA adverts on the hoardings at the airport (I havent seen them anywhere else)
are pretty bland? Unless you look closely I dont think you can even see what they are advertising- coudl do with something more akin to the Jet and Ryanair advrts, bold and clear and to the point.

PS. I was on the flight up from London that just landed. Does anyone know what the RVR's were and if autoland was used?

LbaYorkie

 

[White Heather]

It will have been LBAYorkie as according to flightradar24, current RVR on 32 is only 250m and only 150 on 14.

I wonder if the Thomson 757 will be able to auto land? Jet2 don't do it with theirs do they?

 

[lbaspotter]

PS. I was on the flight up from London that just landed. Does anyone know what the RVR's were and if autoland was used?

LbaYorkie

Yes this evenings SHT1344 did do a CATIII apparoach to runway 32. As the RVR's at the time were given as 250m, 250m & 275m

The latest RVR's for LBA's runway 32 now stand at 350m, 375m & 375m. Hence the reason why the based bmi regional Embrear 145, G-RJXF has just landed doing a CATII on the inbound BMR1616 from Brussles...