New Birmingham Airport Viewing Facility

[Aviador]

Great post Ray.

Has anybody considered doing a petition or questionnaire asking people if they would consider using such a facility if it was built. Remember, it needs to be aimed at people who would want to take the whole family for a day out, not just at spotters.

Perhaps somebody at Birmingham university could be asked to do some sort of dissertation, independent research or feasibility study.

One company possibly worth trying is NCP. It goes without saying, they already have substantial experience in managing car parks and barriers. Even if they don't wish to take on the project they might be willing to offer advise on some things.

 

[User0001]

A great post Ray, and a very thorough expansion on the points I was trying to get across.

I do honestly think a fact finding trip to MAN will yield a lot of answers.

It will give invaluable data on the areas such as H&S, insurance, maintenance, building, management etc. It will also be a good way to find out about advertising, as MAN as an airport actively advertise the AVP on its website and social media, which is the first place a 'layman' could look for any info about spotting.

Does BHX have something like TAS (The Aviation Society), a large group of enthusuasts who help run the AVP at MAN and hold aviation events at the site? They could be a key component in getting an idea off the ground with things like volunteering and spreading the word, and also getting events in to boost visitors and awareness?

 

[Elmdon80slad]

Thank you ray, very well laid out and will require alot of working, here is a summary of how I think a breakdown of things would go -

COSTS
Car Park = Could include the rugby clubs and have an additional area built, this could be between the clubs pitch and view park, or an extension of exsisting.

Viewing Facilities = Possibly one or two (pref 2) 1 would be a wooden construction so keeping lo-key and fitting in with surroundings, of an open plan set up with a ramp for wheelchairs etc, and space under for chairs tables etc(slight weather protection), and another construction of a more solid building containing a shop, this could sell aviation, rugby and general merchandise, and viewing available ontop also.

Car Parking/Entrance Fees = Could be in the form of a booth at the entrance to the grounds(off the Damson Lane entrance near the grounds building), entrance could be sectioned into - pay for viewing incl of parking, or pay for rugby match/s, or both when applicable.

Advertising = Could be - local radio, airport, internet forums, news papers, and sponsors dependent on who they are and their connections.

Childrens Play Arrears = Via local firms looking to advertise their companie/s, and a regualr maintenance plan with them.


LEGAL ISSUES
Insurance = Depenent on ground/company/s involved.

Health & Safety = Rugby Team management are likely to be well informed on this.

Finance = Communication with Rugby Club and parties involved etc.


BUSINESS PLAN = Could be created and prepaired including 1) When above is known, 2) After generic figures are known from - like for like eg - Manchesters, 3) Inclusion of background information including needs/desires and background of Birmingham Airport Spotting history.


E.

 

[Hassaan]

Wouldn't they want you to estimate or state the exact costs?

If only one of us could have gone on Dragon's Den... - but of course the business plan would need to have been thought out more.

I would BHX would have a group of enthusiasts which could go on a fact finding trip as mentioned above. I've had some thoughts of a petition - anyone know of what I could write as a description, and as the title? And there's also got to be a way that people can sign it as well - Birmingham-related forums/websites could work.

What are your thoughts on viewing mounds similar to those at MAN? They include a pile of earth and well, grass has grown out of it, and over there, I don't seem to know of any issues with weather.

Social media can definitely help get the message across.

If you are a member of other aviation forums, and you can try and get some further opinions or anything that will help towards it, go for it.

I think out of all things, we need to agree on a good site first. :good:

 

[Elmdon80slad]

I think - The Rugby Ground, it has a 1000percent advantage - Ground owners are interested and thats a 1000percent up from anything else I have come across,
so I think we should go with this, and if people search american airport viewing sites most are on the outskirts and not on airport boundaries.

Are we all agreed on this location....

 

[Ray Finkle]

I do honestly think a fact finding trip to MAN will yield a lot of answers.

I think it could be the most important and valuable piece of the jigsaw, speaking not only to people who have been there and done it but have done it very successfully for many years. I'm sure it would be an eye opener.

Does BHX have something like TAS (The Aviation Society), a large group of enthusuasts who help run the AVP at MAN and hold aviation events at the site? They could be a key component in getting an idea off the ground with things like volunteering and spreading the word, and also getting events in to boost visitors and awareness?

BAEG (Birmingham Aviation Enthusiasts Group) are the main group of enthusiasts. If they could be got onside with an offer of free entry and free hosting of events then some may well offer to volunteer and they would definitely spread the word.

COSTS
Car Park = Could include the rugby clubs and have an additional area built, this could be between the clubs pitch and view park, or an extension of exsisting.

Viewing Facilities = Possibly one or two (pref 2) 1 would be a wooden construction so keeping lo-key and fitting in with surroundings, of an open plan set up with a ramp for wheelchairs etc, and space under for chairs tables etc(slight weather protection), and another construction of a more solid building containing a shop, this could sell aviation, rugby and general merchandise, and viewing available ontop also.

Car Parking/Entrance Fees = Could be in the form of a booth at the entrance to the grounds(off the Damson Lane entrance near the grounds building), entrance could be sectioned into - pay for viewing incl of parking, or pay for rugby match/s, or both when applicable.

Advertising = Could be - local radio, airport, internet forums, news papers, and sponsors dependent on who they are and their connections.

Childrens Play Arrears = Via local firms looking to advertise their companie/s, and a regualr maintenance plan with them.

Please don't take this the wrong way as I mean it constructively but what could be done is known, what is now needed are solid figures. How much will an additional car park area cost? How much will it cost to build the viewing mounds and shop? How much will it cost to build a car park booth and how much will it cost to pay someone to staff it? How much is all that advertising going to cost? What local firms are there to supply a play area and how much will it cost? These are all questions any backer will want answered and will go someway towards the figure you will be asking for.

This is going to be a massive task and will require a strong character with a lot of time available to project manage it. It's doable though :good:

 

[Hassaan]

I think - The Rugby Ground, it has a 1000percent advantage - Ground owners are interested and thats a 1000percent up from anything else I have come across,
so I think we should go with this, and if people search american airport viewing sites most are on the outskirts and not on airport boundaries.

Are we all agreed on this location....

If there is absolutely nowhere else around the airport where it could be situated, and it provides good enough views of the airport, then I will agree. Still not convinced though, because it won't be very close to the action - the A45 will be in the way. Part of what made Manchester's park a success was the fact it provided some of the best views of aircraft in the UK - not to mention it's close to the action.

Maybe this situation could work though, if the back of the TriStar hotel is completely out of the question. Didn't they say they would build a car park at the back? Shame they couldn't expand that and add a shop, restaurant, and raised viewing mounds. :sad:

 

[Ray Finkle]

Still not convinced though, because it won't be very close to the action - the A45 will be in the way. Part of what made Manchester's park a success was the fact it provided some of the best views of aircraft in the UK - not to mention it's close to the action.

This is a very valid point that needs to be considered. Manchester's viewing area was created because there was no where for spotters to go whereas Birmingham has always had decent views from various angles, to get ordinary families to pay good money when they can spend an afternoon right at the end of the runway in Sheldon Country Park for free the viewing will need to be spectacular. This site (for viewing purposes) is a little too far away than ideal, will have views obstructed by trees, buildings and noise bunds, has a major dual carriageway between it and the airfield and will only offer views over approx half of the runway at most. It's a real shame the airport company aren't willing to do something.

 

[Elmdon80slad]

I aggree about the location and if it could be put right next to a taxiway even pinching part of the long stay, then that would have been fantastic, but we have to be realistic - Spotting with the airports blessings allways has been problematic and getting something built by the airport for viewing/visiting purposes has allways been a problem, I remember starting the Junior Jet Club at Elmdon back in 1977/78 and we were allways being chased out of the old Elmdon Terminal Restaraunt by staff, and moved relunctantly on to the spiral staircase.
I just cant see anywere else to have what could be a major facility, it does depend on investors and obviously the larger the investment-the bigger and more majestic it could be, I will try to track down some pics of american spotting to show, - sometimes they dont have to built right ontop of the airport...

 

[Hassaan]

This is a very valid point that needs to be considered. Manchester's viewing area was created because there was no where for spotters to go whereas Birmingham has always had decent views from various angles, to get ordinary families to pay good money when they can spend an afternoon right at the end of the runway in Sheldon Country Park for free the viewing will need to be spectacular. This site (for viewing purposes) is a little too far away than ideal, will have views obstructed by trees, buildings and noise bunds, has a major dual carriageway between it and the airfield and will only offer views over approx half of the runway at most. It's a real shame the airport company aren't willing to do something.

The Sheldon Country Park is a good spot, i've been there many times and it's great when Runway 15 is in use. However, one of the drawbacks is that it's situated quite directly in front of the runway, and not to mention it doesn't really have anything much to go with it such as a shop, restaurant etc. Of course, even with a new viewing area, people will still use that, either to get a different view, or because the costs for the viewing area are not to their liking.

So BHX already has some spots with good views. This new viewing area has to have great views. The back of the TriStar hotel would be close enough to the runway, it looks over to the terminal, the airfield, and there's enough space there for a car park, and some raised viewing mounds, a shop & restaurant. I mentioned this before - that seems almost the perfect spot. It needs to reel people in - yes the MAN park has it's costs, and there are other viewing areas accessible, but it is still hugely popular. Why? The views are obviously great, and the whole area is aviation based and it suits the whole family with a kids play area, restaurant etc.

Sheldon Country Park is good for relaxing as it is a good park, if you're part of a family obviously, and don't get me wrong it is a good viewing area. But I just have a feeling that an official area, in this situation which I have mentioned, will be even more successful. It should be able to offer the best views of any viewing site at BHX, especially considering there is no indoor viewing area, and there is space for a kids play area, and of course a restaurant to be included as mentioned.

Sorry, got a bit over-excited there, and I apologise if some bits don't make sense.

As for investments, I did send out the email to numerous airlines, including those that don't serve BHX. :blush:

Anyway, I got a reply from Singapore, saying that they liked the idea, thought it was a great concept, but they aren't in a position to invest in it because they obviously don't serve here. But, still plenty more to go.

And in regards to Elmdon80slad, with respect, you would have to look at what has made Manchester's a success.

Part of the long stay car park is another spot which could also work. It would take a portion of it though, but I think that could also work. It just has to be presented in a way that makes it seem plausible.

I don't know if this was the Long Stay, but looking at an image from the 80s, it looks as though there was a sort of viewing area there:

For those wondering, that was the first Concorde to visit BHX, September 16th, 1980.

In the first picture, you can see that there was a sort of cafe for spotters (according to the description in the image anyway) on the left (that brown building). It did seem to attract visitors back then.

 

[Ray Finkle]

So BHX already has some spots with good views. This new viewing area has to have great views. The back of the TriStar hotel would be close enough to the runway, it looks over to the terminal, the airfield, and there's enough space there for a car park, and some raised viewing mounds, a shop & restaurant. I mentioned this before - that seems almost the perfect spot. It needs to reel people in - yes the MAN park has it's costs, and there are other viewing areas accessible, but it is still hugely popular. Why? The views are obviously great, and the whole area is aviation based and it suits the whole family with a kids play area, restaurant etc.

Sheldon Country Park is good for relaxing as it is a good park, if you're part of a family obviously, and don't get me wrong it is a good viewing area. But I just have a feeling that an official area, in this situation which I have mentioned, will be even more successful. It should be able to offer the best views of any viewing site at BHX, especially considering there is no indoor viewing area, and there is space for a kids play area, and of course a restaurant to be included as mentioned.

Spot on :good:

It should be able to offer the best views of any viewing site at BHX

Totally agree, the issue with the sports ground is it won't. Landing on 15 Sheldon Country Park has a better view, landing on 33 the new bridleway and the new viewing area in long stay 1 will have better views, all for free. The land behind the Tristar hotel is perfect with unobstructed views over the entire airfield and very close to the action but the fact remains that the airport own it and aren't interested.

 

[Ray Finkle]

This excellent photo is from the Birmingham Airport Photo Blog and the yellow writing is theirs, I've just borrowed and drawn on it to show different viewing angles to give people unfamiliar with the area an overview.

Link to the Blog and some excellent pictures http://bhxflightguide.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... 07-08.html



The light blue is the site of the new viewing area to be created after the works are done, it'll only be a few benches but there will be views over the whole airfield, it will be next to and slightly above the new parallel taxiway and nearly in line with the runway threshold.

The purple is the area behind the Tristar hotel. The whole of the terminals are visible opposite and most of the runway can be seen. The two black lines are roughly what would be obstructed by a small building but it's on lower ground so slightly raised platforms would solve this.

The red is the sports ground. Views to the buildings are limited with approx a third of the runway in view, as can be seen aircraft landing on 15 and vacating at taxiway Charlie, which most do, wouldn't be in view at all. The curved black line is where a noise bund is being built and the small orange circle is the Tristar hotel with trees next to it, to see above these would require a very high platform.

The yellow curved line on the left is where the new bridleway will be offering views over the 33 threshold and the buildings in the distance, over time this has the potential to be as popular as Sheldon Country Park for picnickers.

The dark blue line at the top is Sheldon Country Park and the golf course.

 

[Elmdon80slad]

This is a very valid point that needs to be considered. Manchester's viewing area was created because there was no where for spotters to go whereas Birmingham has always had decent views from various angles, to get ordinary families to pay good money when they can spend an afternoon right at the end of the runway in Sheldon Country Park for free the viewing will need to be spectacular. This site (for viewing purposes) is a little too far away than ideal, will have views obstructed by trees, buildings and noise bunds, has a major dual carriageway between it and the airfield and will only offer views over approx half of the runway at most. It's a real shame the airport company aren't willing to do something.

The Sheldon Country Park is a good spot, i've been there many times and it's great when Runway 15 is in use. However, one of the drawbacks is that it's situated quite directly in front of the runway, and not to mention it doesn't really have anything much to go with it such as a shop, restaurant etc. Of course, even with a new viewing area, people will still use that, either to get a different view, or because the costs for the viewing area are not to their liking.

So BHX already has some spots with good views. This new viewing area has to have great views. The back of the TriStar hotel would be close enough to the runway, it looks over to the terminal, the airfield, and there's enough space there for a car park, and some raised viewing mounds, a shop & restaurant. I mentioned this before - that seems almost the perfect spot. It needs to reel people in - yes the MAN park has it's costs, and there are other viewing areas accessible, but it is still hugely popular. Why? The views are obviously great, and the whole area is aviation based and it suits the whole family with a kids play area, restaurant etc.

Sheldon Country Park is good for relaxing as it is a good park, if you're part of a family obviously, and don't get me wrong it is a good viewing area. But I just have a feeling that an official area, in this situation which I have mentioned, will be even more successful. It should be able to offer the best views of any viewing site at BHX, especially considering there is no indoor viewing area, and there is space for a kids play area, and of course a restaurant to be included as mentioned.

Sorry, got a bit over-excited there, and I apologise if some bits don't make sense.

As for investments, I did send out the email to numerous airlines, including those that don't serve BHX. :blush:

Anyway, I got a reply from Singapore, saying that they liked the idea, thought it was a great concept, but they aren't in a position to invest in it because they obviously don't serve here. But, still plenty more to go.

And in regards to Elmdon80slad, with respect, you would have to look at what has made Manchester's a success.

Part of the long stay car park is another spot which could also work. It would take a portion of it though, but I think that could also work. It just has to be presented in a way that makes it seem plausible.

I don't know if this was the Long Stay, but looking at an image from the 80s, it looks as though there was a sort of viewing area there:

For those wondering, that was the first Concorde to visit BHX, September 16th, 1980.

In the first picture, you can see that there was a sort of cafe for spotters (according to the description in the image anyway) on the left (that brown building). It did seem to attract visitors back then.

I was there that day im in that crowd somwere i remember it well, a truly great day there was people all up and down the A45, down the golf course and around the airport terminal, the brown building was a cafe for the flying clubs there, they had two main clubs - The Warwickshire Aero club, and Birmingham Aviation flying mainly C152/C172 then Pa38 s, I flew in one of the C172 s from there around that time, the cafe owners used to turn a blind eye to spotters aslong as thet purchased something - tea a butty etc, and it did get busy at weekends.

 

[Elmdon80slad]

I have spent over 2 years in total on this project and was for warned about the potential lack of viewing facility at Brum by the previous part owner of the old Hobby Shop at the airport(pre Ian Allan), I have exhausted all options prior to the rugby grounds and I will be honest, before the grounds manager came back to me 100positive and interested it was a complete flop after contacting nearly everyone I could imagine even old Brum bands and musicians, I had given up, if anywere else more convenient becomes possible I will frankly - take my hat off or eat it, I used to work at the airport also so I can also say that enthusiasts and visitors are not thier priority or interest, and because of this, if a viewing centre or spotters get in the way of the airports expansion they will not be impressed or let it.
So after exhausting all avenues this is the only option I see as its the only place and person who has come forward and said Yes, everyone else said No.

 

[Hassaan]

I don't see why a viewing area should come in the way of the airport's expansion.

If they were to go for the Long Stay Car Park, then they'd have to make it so it's an official viewing area, rather than a section of the Long Stay Car Park that could be used for viewing planes. It would have to include a separate entrance though, and they'd have to make it so the views are great, so they'd have to scale down the fence a bit.

As for the back of the TriStar hotel, have the airport actually come forward and said themselves "It's never going to happen here"? I sure hope not, but if they haven't, then maybe there is still a chance to get them interested. It will require a bit of work around the whole business plan.

It's only those two areas that can really offer the best views. I'm not taking anything away from your efforts Elmdon80slad but it's been mentioned before, I can't see a viewing area at the rugby grounds being successful because the views are simply not great - It's hardly going to create excitement amongst spotters or people visiting in general because it's far from the action - being close to the action is part of what makes Manchester's park interesting. There's no point trying to secure an area which really isn't going to attract the visitors.

I visited the Runway Visitor Park at Manchester last month - even on a day when it looked as though it had rained, it was reasonably busy. The viewing mounds were a bit crowded, a load of middle-aged northerners up there. :blush: but on a serious note, the views are great up there because there's no fence in the way, and you can get close to the action.

Something on 'spotting weekends' was mentioned before - so there's another way BHX can make some revenue from it. Evidently, I'm not a business person. I don't have much knowledge on business. I do watch The Apprentice so I have some idea on project managing, getting together a business plan etc, but when we're delving a bit more into it such as the accurate costs, then that's where I'm probably not very good at.

I'm not sure as to what'll come of this now - hopefully there's just some way we can get people's opinions on what site they would prefer. That's probably the best way to decide, and it's probably the only suitable way to solve this debate (if it needs to be solved).

 

[Elmdon80slad]

Here's a few American Spotting Locations...

1) Dallas Fort Worth
2) Los Angeles
3) Miami

 

[Elmdon80slad]

Here is the pdf I received from the airport a while back, it was looked at by the board at quite high level by, John Morris Public Affairs Manager and some others possibly even the main airport director.
Not sure if I can add it its an Adobe PDF file?

tried to add its says extension pdf can not be added :search:

 

[Hassaan]

Thing is, those airports are actually much bigger than BHX, so even if you are quite far from it, you can still get a decent view. Kind of the same with the likes of London Heathrow, Gatwick etc.

Maybe you could print screen the PDF and then post it as an attachment.

 

[Elmdon80slad]

Here we go I managed to take a picture and here we are...

 

[Hassaan]

So is that saying the airport is simply not interested? Surely the Aviation Experience was popular before the new pier got in the way, restricting views?

What if we were not to involve the airport in the venture (even though it would be situated on site)?