Leeds Bradford: Air Traffic, ILS & Navigation Aids

[Aviador]

Thanks for the info.
Strange that several flights including KLM have taken this route. Maybe not to wake the people living in Leeds City Centre 🤣

Maybe it's for you know who in Adel?

 

[oldendays]

I noticed a couple of departures off RW32 around 8 a.m. today made right turns after takeoff. I'm not aware of and changes to SIDs or any ropey weather at the time.

 

[The Pole]

I noticed a couple of departures off RW32 around 8 a.m. today made right turns after takeoff. I'm not aware of and changes to SIDs or any ropey weather at the time.

Just looked on FR24 to see, it was Malta and Dubrovnik Jet2, then Krakow RYR and Jet2 to CFU went left and downwind left. Be interested to know why, no conflicting traffic visible on FR24 and no bad weather as can look on rainfall radar for last 24 hours!
Anyone shed any light on this?

 

[twevsmiff]

Just looked on FR24 to see, it was Malta and Dubrovnik Jet2, then Krakow RYR and Jet2 to CFU went left and downwind left. Be interested to know why, no conflicting traffic visible on FR24 and no bad weather as can look on rainfall radar for last 24 hours!
Anyone shed any light on this?

They both asked for right turn out after lining up on 32, because of weather to Northwest

 

[White Heather]

They both asked for right turn out after lining up on 32, because of weather to Northwest

Might as well get used to it as it could be a regular routing in the future for flights heading East into central Europe .

 

[oldendays]

Thanks all. I hadn't looked out of the window by this time so obviously didn't see any rough weather.

 

[oldendays]

The Tower controller is virtually unreadable just now. TX strength 5 but his speech keeps fading in and out. Suspect failing microphone. Not the first time I've heard this happen but pilots don't always notice.

 

[oldendays]

#a300boy. Do you ever notice this? By and large, LBA RT quality is reasonably good in my experience but this business of inconsistent speech levels is one I come across on all LBA frequencies with a few different controllers. It all seemed to begin with the Frequentis VCCS replacing the Schmid about four years ago.

 

[a300boy]

#a300boy. Do you ever notice this? By and large, LBA RT quality is reasonably good in my experience but this business of inconsistent speech levels is one I come across on all LBA frequencies with a few different controllers. It all seemed to begin with the Frequentis VCCS replacing the Schmid about four years ago.

Yes it is often poor and difficult to understand as I am so close to the airport it is a mystery to me and I use a tranceiver rather than a receiver to listen at home.
Dont notice a problem from the aircraft though when flying in and out of LBA in the diamond star so difficult to understand why.

 

[oldendays]

Yes it is often poor and difficult to understand as I am so close to the airport it is a mystery to me and I use a tranceiver rather than a receiver to listen at home.
Dont notice a problem from the aircraft though when flying in and out of LBA in the diamond star so difficult to understand why.

Problem started when 123.75 was replaced by 125 or 133 something. New aerials on the Tower at about the same time.

On a separate note, I think 'Works 16' need a new radio. It sounds like someone is playing a washboard in the background!

Furthermore, there's at least three ATCOs who could do with new microphones on their headsets. Their speech varies from muffled to faint, clipped and broken (more a transmission issue) and plosive consonants distorting their words. Nothing new, mind.

 

[quik123]

Ground-Air VHF is very low power compared to a lot of other systems so receiving it on the ground can be a challenge. Let's face it, it is not intended to be received by folk on the ground away from the airport(in fact it is illegal to do so). When the aerials were replaced/ Frequentis installed, a lot of changes were made to the power outputs and modulation depths of the LBA stuff and even more changes when 8.33 spacing was introduced. All this will make it harder for reception on the ground. As some have said, there is no problem in the air!

 

[oldendays]

I appreciate the information quik. But my point here is that the transmissions from some controllers are what I would describe as sub-par and across all LBA frequencies, which suggests something wrong with individual microphones or speech technique, e.g. speaking too close to the microphone (muffling and distortion) or too far away (drop out and clipping). My experience with NC microphones is that they require loud speech but not too close. Maybe some foam windshields would help, if not already fitted.
.

 

[Aviador]

I appreciate the information quik. But my point here is that the transmissions from some controllers are what I would describe as sub-par and across all LBA frequencies, which suggests something wrong with individual microphones or speech technique, e.g. speaking too close to the microphone (muffling and distortion) or too far away (drop out and clipping). My experience with NC microphones is that they require loud speech but not too close. Maybe some foam windshields would help, if not already fitted.
.

Or maybe you need to upgrade your receiver if it's behaving so badly.

 

[oldendays]

Nowt wrong at my end, be assured. I've been listening to the airbands for over forty years and I know when something isn't right. Plus, just a few weeks ago, I telephoned the Tower controller on night shift (I was at work too) to inform him his transmissions on UHF were virtually unreadable, i.e. speech almost inaudible. He acknowledged there was a problem and concurred his headset was likely to blame.

 

[quik123]

Nowt wrong at my end, be assured. I've been listening to the airbands for over forty years and I know when something isn't right. Plus, just a few weeks ago, I telephoned the Tower controller on night shift (I was at work too) to inform him his transmissions on UHF were virtually unreadable, i.e. speech almost inaudible. He acknowledged there was a problem and concurred his headset was likely to blame.

Sometimes, controllers remove their headsets when they are not busy eg night shifts. Then, when they suddenly need to use it, they just pick up the headset and put the microphone somewhere near their mouth. Unfortunately this means the mic is not in the correct position or orientation. Their next move will be to report the headset faulty when really it's just been the way they had used it. Not every time by any means but I've seen it regularly at LBA and other VCRs. PS Have you reported Works 16 to ATE. If it sounds as bad as you suggest then I'm sure they'll look into it.

 

[EX9]

Have you tried taking one of said radios to the airport vicinity to see if the audio is different without everything and anything in the way on the ground?

Works16 never had a fixed vehicle radio until last week and it is suffering from electrical interference.

 

[oldendays]

Sometimes, controllers remove their headsets when they are not busy eg night shifts. Then, when they suddenly need to use it, they just pick up the headset and put the microphone somewhere near their mouth. Unfortunately this means the mic is not in the correct position or orientation. Their next move will be to report the headset faulty when really it's just been the way they had used it. Not every time by any means but I've seen it regularly at LBA and other VCRs. PS Have you reported Works 16 to ATE. If it sounds as bad as you suggest then I'm sure they'll look into it.

A very fair point but I promise it is the same few controllers plus the same issues every time. I suspect these are things that pilots won't necessarily notice if they are wearing a headset in the cockpit as the sound is directed straight to their ears but a loudspeaker makes them more noticeable. FWIW, Manchester Airport ATC also uses the Frequentis VCCS and Sennheiser HME46 headsets and their TX quality and speech reception is invariably 10/10, just like having the controller right next to you. I cannot say the same for Leeds Bradford.

As for Works 16, I don't work at the airport any more so I no longer have easy access to AOU or Tels. I doubt either department would entertain a phone call from a now-outsider!

Have you tried taking one of said radios to the airport vicinity to see if the audio is different without everything and anything in the way on the ground?

Works16 never had a fixed vehicle radio until last week and it is suffering from electrical interference.

Cross-post. Yes and there's no difference. I wonder if there's a grounding problem with the Works 16 installation?

Interesting subject nevertheless, whoever may be right or wrong or miles off!

 

[EX9]

Every since the frequencies changed a few years back I have been under the impression that the transmissions sound rubbish on handheld receivers. The quality from ground to air and vice versa is not an issue though.

 

[radar]

FWIW, Manchester Airport ATC also uses the Frequentis VCCS

This is incorrect - Frequentis VCCS, despite being an excellent system, is not used at Manchester.

I hesitate to say this (the last time I contributed to this topic of discussion I was banned from a sub-forum), but as quik123 pointed out above there are good equipment-related and other reasons why hobbyist reception of LBA R/T transmissions may have become poorer over recent years, and it is all irrelevant as long as the intended recipients can hear clearly.

As for individual ATCOs/headsets, pilots and other ATC staff are generally quick to mention it if someone is having R/T legibility problems. Beyond that, random R/T samples are conducted regularly by ATC assessors, so problems can be addressed that way too.

 

[oldendays]

Thankyou radar. I was hoping you would come in at some point. As I recall Manchester replaced their Schmid system with Frequentis at roughly the same time as LBA did likewise. Perhaps they've changed again since that time. Anyway, whatever they use, I stand by my assertion that their RT quality is generally superior to that of LBA. TX is usually louder and punchier with more bass, virtually no white noise and no distortion, muffling or drop-out. One layman's theory is that they have a slightly higher TX power setting on account of being at the end of a valley which LBA certainly isn't!

I accept that if pilots don't notice or report any RT aggro then there is no reason for investigation but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't something wrong. Plus I'm not in the technical loop, so to speak, so I expect there's other stuff that I'm not aware of.

As for Works 16, this morning it sounds like a frog continuously croaking in the background. I think we can all agree that ain't right, unless Kermit has a job with AOU.

Thanks all. A most worthwhile debate.