Road, Rail & Access Issues

[White Heather]

I agree Bigman. Personally I think the NGT project is a waste of money and whilst it will perhaps provide slightly faster transport into Leeds for some, others (notaby those living in Tinshill and areas of Cookridge not covered by NGT) will find their services reduced. No way will the current no 6 service continue as a 10 minute frequency if its competing with the NGT up to Holt Park. The impact on the environment, with hundreds of mature trees simply chopped down, is also unacceptable. The entire Otley Road and Otley Old Road corridor will never be the same again. However, all that said, only Leeds could come up with a proposed NGT scheme which terminates at ASDA and ignores the fact the City's airport is 2 miles up the road. If this thing has to be built, then it should terminate at LBA from the start. Anything else is simply crazy. That would then link the airport with Headingley and North West Leeds

 

[lbaspotter]

Nice Article in today's Yorkshire evening post about yesterday development plans for the future of LBA

Source: http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/n ... -1-6899560

Traffic links ‘vital’ to Leeds Bradford Airport growth

SORTING out the “plague” of traffic congestion - as well as lobbying for a new rail link - should be top of the agenda for Leeds’s regional airport, political leaders said today.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

After analysing the newspaper report, it would seem to me that a clear message is being sent to the airport: "You have our backing, now do something about it". The distinct impression I get is that Leeds City Council believe that the airport is the only thing that is holding itself back. Based on what we already know and have discussed, that would tend to make sense.

You can have every last possible thing in place to be successful but, if you don't want it enough, nothing will be achieved.

 

[White Heather]

It is a simple enough equation. If the infrastructure is in place to make LBA more accessible, encouraging more people to use it, and it is clear that demand is increasing or very likely to increase, then Bridgepoint are far more likely to invest signficicantly in the airport itself than they are now. That is basic business management. Spend a fortune with no return is a recipe for disaster. Equally, failure to recognise the potential for growth by failing to invest and improve is also a recipe for disaster. The trick is finding the middle ground to enable steady improvement and growth without taking gambles which could prove very damaging.

What is required is a joint commitment from both Bridgepoint and the Local Authority via the Masterplan, that over a given period of time, both will work together to to turn LBA into a major airport for this side of the Pennines, with a specified timetable for delivery of each element of the project. I am thinking here that the Link Road is required from the A65 within the next couple of years, the rail link needs to at least be started within the next 5 years (and if that can't happen the cheaper 'temporary' option would be a new parkway station on the Harrogate line with road link to the airport, and the car park shuttle buses extended down there to pick passengers up'), whilst at the same time Bridgepoint commits to invest further by building the long awaited terminal extension within the next 2-3 years, vastly improving the arrivals areas to create more space (urgently!!), extending the aircraft stands available, and sorting out the ILS/touch down points to reduce the diversion rate in low vis conditions. We also need a proper airport hotel close to the airport although that isn't something Bridgepoint would build themselves. Finding a hotel chain to build one would be so much easier though if all of the above was put in place and there was clear growth ahead.

This is the most positive situation I can remember in my lifetime in terms of Council Support and MP Support for LBA, as in the past both have actively worked to prevent expansion. Those that did, back then, should hang their heads in shame. I just hope that this leads to something and doesn't just fizzle out on the grounds that there isn't the money. This is a spend to achieve project - spend the money, attract the passengers, improve the airport, and more money will flow into the local economy. A longer term view is required rather than a short term view.

 

[Aviador]

No mention of any money to build an airport link road in today's government road infrastructure spending. :shout: I mean seriously, the amount needed to link the Leeds Ring Road with the airport is peanuts compared with the amount of money they're promising to spend.

 

[Bigman]

Yes, but they are going to build a nice big tunnel under the Pennines to make it easier for the good folks of Yorkshire to get to Manchester. Then there are the continuing improvements to the M62, and then of course there is HS3 which will once again make it easier for the good folks of Yorkshire to get to Manchester. Bit of a common theme going on here.

 

[yorkie40]

Yeah manchester get everything and us yorkshire folk get nowt! Its nowt new tho we should all be used to it bu now :whiteflag:

 

[rmac]

!!

And it all makes it easier for the good folks of Lancashire to get to Leeds !

 

[Bigman]

Yorkshire puddings with Lancashire hotpot, followed by Eccles cakes all washed down with a pot of Yorkshire tea. A few Everton mints and Pontefract cakes to suck on later. Bring on the Northern powerhouse as the government call it!!

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I would just like to bring to the attention of the forum the following excerpt from HM Treasury's Autumn Statement:

"1.193 International connectivity is also crucial. The government encourages West
Yorkshire Combined Authority to develop further the plans to improve connectivity to
Leeds Bradford International Airport."

No money is mentioned but the wording would suggest that schemes have government backing should sensible proposals be made. As I stated before, it is now up to the local authority to do something about it.

 

[Galaxy]

Yesterday the Department for Transport published documentation relating to a LBA rail link, the page is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... lity-study

This has been widely discussed on Rail Forums, this link takes you to the more recent discussions: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread. ... 796&page=4 (scroll down to get to the posts in relation to the DfT document).

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Right, hands up everyone who has read all 149 pages?

Seriously though, having read the report, I am disappointed with some of the conclusions as I feel they miss the point and are based largely on LBA rather than the region as a whole, despite highlighting throughout how improvements would affect the region as a whole. For example, the report concludes that heavy rail would offer poor value for money based on customer projections but does not take into account any potential increase in passengers at Guiseley, Shipley, Horsforth, Headingley or Burley Park - and doesn't mention at all the potential indirect benefits to rail services to Harrogate.

However, the report does make numerous points that I have been making for some time, such as signage not being good enough, through ticketing not being good or clear enough, the need for additional infrastructure in other places - which would NOT be funded in the same scheme as a link to the airport - prior to any heavy rail link even being considered.

The prime case in point for this is the link road (highlighted as a good value for money, short term option). It had not occurred to me that the link road would also become the preferred traffic route from the airport (and, theoretically, Harrogate) to Bradford, diverting traffic away from Apperley Bridge and sending it along the Leeds Ring Road to the A647. For this link road to be considered, improvements elsewhere in the infrastructure are required. These improvements are, in part, already being made (Horsforth, Rodley, Thornbury Barracks) which makes the road link viable. Without major upgrades between Burley Park and Leeds and at Leeds station itself, a rail link is not viable, even before the value for money calculations.

The best chance LBA has of gaining a rail link, according to this report, would be to link it in to HS2/HS3 - a point I made following the publication of "The Northern Hub" proposal - and only if it then links to Guiseley as well.

I tend not to read the RailUK Forums because one has to sift through layer upon layer of nonsense spouted by uninformed train spotters who have a sense of entitlement simply because they like trains. It is not worth the effort to find the odd sensible and relevant comment. However, for the purpose of this reply, I followed the link provided by Galaxy. Typically, I found a lot of bluster. One such comment asked how the services would be operated as there are no more available trains for the network. The response to that comment was that there are currently enough electric trains to cascade onto services to LBA. Neither of those posters seemed to grasp that:

1. The report considers a rail link to be a "long term" aspiration (20 years or more)
2. Other local lines would potentially first have to be electrified (funding for which is not forthcoming)
3. The government announced earlier this week that the next operators of the Northern and Trans-Pennine franchises would have to commit to entering new rolling stock into service and providing additional services.

Should number 3 happen, there would be plenty of rolling stock available for these services in 20 years time, providing the government presses ahead with electrification plans for trans pennine routes.

One of the most interesting parts of the report breaks down investment in Bus travel to LBA. It states that improving bus links as a whole is not good value for money HOWEVER solely improving bus links to Leeds would provide good value for money as only the current Leeds service produces revenue above costs. Again, I feel this misses the point somewhat as, surely, improving the bus links across the region as a whole will make them a more viable alternative to the car making travel between population centres and along commuter routes more popular, in turn creating more revenue. This has been completely overlooked by the report. (The report DOES state however that not all customer journey potential has been included in the calculations.)

Finally, the report states that LBA has committed to certain levels of funding based on throughput, primarily concerning total number of entry/exit and car throughput at peak times. There is, therefore, an incentive for LBA to increase passenger throughput away from peak hours as, quite aside from not having to spend too much money in terminal/infrastructure upgrades, they would not have to contribute so much to local schemes with regards to access.

In drawing my own conclusions, it is clear that Rail remains the pipe dream but there are far bigger, shorter term, lower cost wins to be had and it is up to LBA to make the most of these. If they do not, more expensive, longer term schemes will not even be considered as they will not provide good enough value for money.

 

[Bigman]

Pipe dreams indeed. Surely there are more practical things they could do such as encourage/fund more bus connections. It amazes me that there is not one bus that goes to the likes of Ilkley, Keighley or Wetherby. Also, LBA must be one of the few airports that does not have any National Express services, despite being slap bang on the A658.

Personally, I cannot see why they can't extend the 762/765 Keighley-Ilkley services to the airport. This would then also serve Burley-in-Wharfedale, as well as beefing up the service from Otley. Also could National Express not put on a Bradford-Harrogate-Ripon-Darlington-Durham-Newcastle service?

And then of course there is the missing York service, which could easily operate via Wetherby and Tadcaster. Seemingly simple measures that would not cost millions!!

 

[cmj]

And then of course there is the missing York service, which could easily operate via Wetherby and Tadcaster. Seemingly simple measures that would not cost millions!!

There was a somewhat short-lived York - LBA bus service some years ago. I ws living in York at the time and used it a few times to get to LBA (when Air Southwest were going) to fly to Newquay.

A lot of York folk I know consider Manchester easier to get to than LBA, because they can just get on a train at York and get off it at Manchester Airport, in 1hr45. Google maps suggests it's around an hour to drive York to LBA. If you run a bus through Wetherby and Tadcaster I can imagine you'd be looking at 1h20-1h30, which for York folks is going to be a hard sell over train to Manchester.

 

[White Heather]

A lot of York folk I know consider Manchester easier to get to than LBA, because they can just get on a train at York and get off it at Manchester Airport, in 1hr45. Google maps suggests it's around an hour to drive York to LBA. If you run a bus through Wetherby and Tadcaster I can imagine you'd be looking at 1h20-1h30, which for York folks is going to be a hard sell over train to Manchester.

Another good reason why a parkway station for LBA on the Harrogate line is necessary as combined with the electrification of the line it would bring LBA within an hours travel from York and just 20 minutes from Harrogate.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Unfortunately, White Heather, the report also states that a LBA parkway station is NOT a viable options as it would provide poor value for money based on their own calculations and, indeed, actively suggests that no further investment should be made developing that idea. Again, however, the potential for York residents to link in to this is not mentioned.

 

[Bigman]

That's the problem with this county. Endless talking and getting nowhere with politicians more bothered about playing about with their abacuses that getting things done. If this had been over the hill, they would already be half way on with building a rail link or a big park-and-ride parkway station near Bramhope. Manchester Airport has got it's tram link a whole year early, which just proves the point!!

Even the South Yorkshire tram-train trial has never got going, and who is their local MP??? yes the Deputy PM!!

 

[adam]

I don't think the answer is a rail link I think the direction is an improved bus link to Yorkshire and better advertisement of links to rail including the old link at Menston to the 967 or a better dedicated link at Guiseley advertised by Metro And all Train companies including the long distance operators. And better promoted through tickets.
Get a 2 hours Nat Ex coach either as an extension of what would be a Leeds terminator/diversion to LBA of what would be a Bradford terminator or as a diversion of a bus between Leeds and York/Newcastle.
My other idea is a similar concept to the dalesbus service where buses from various destinations meet at 1 location then all the passengers go forward on one bus. Something like individual buses from Wakefield/Dewsbury/Batley/Morley all come to Pudsey for example then 1 large bus goes through via the ring road non stop.

 

[SNOWMAN]

hi adam
re-the local buses into Pudsey then to LBA,all those services terminate at leeds bus station where the airport bus starts from,also the buses from York.selby,castleford etc stop or terminate.
regards
sm1

 

[Bigman]

..and then a 45 minute plus journey from Leeds Bus Station. I see where Adam is coming from here. Pudsey buses would not take too long round the Ring Road and you could connect into services like the 4, 9, 90 and 205. And how about a second airport bus that comes up through Headingley and Horsforth on the same route as the 97 until Murgatroyds?