Road, Rail & Access Issues

[Aviador]

I agree that it's still a long way off despite the YEP headline of "New Leeds Bradford Airport rail link planned for spring 2012", the planning process will take considerably longer.

Similarly to my recent comments in the Manchester forum, I do believe that most people that use the airport will continue to travel to the airport by road as opposed to using public transport. I imagine many people who currently use the bus to get to the airport from Leeds city centre will in future choose the train option instead as it will be far quicker. The journey time to the airport by bus is between 25 and 40 minutes as it stands so a ten or 15 minute trip up on the train will sound appealing. The final stage of the journey maybe using the airport shuttle bus which would only be required to go the extra half a mile or so to reach the new station.

Living close to the airport, the possibility of a park and ride scheme involved with the development is essential. It would also be given huge thumbs up by many people in the area as it would have the potential to reduce local traffic which in my eyes is far worse than airport related traffic.

 

[White Heather]

There is no requirement for massive alterations to rolling stock. They would be refurbished so they don't just look like District Line trains and would have a more mainline interior, and they need their electricity pick up shoes (or whatever they call them) adapting so that they run under the rail rather than on top of it, because the intention at the moment is for the 3rd live rail to be shielded above and the current pick up from underneath.

The bus connection from the station would be an extension of the airport car park pick up shuttle buses, provided by the airport itself, so not a commercial operation subject to the axe due to insufficient passengers. It should also be possible for the airport to know when passengers are booked to the LBA parkway station and on which trains, so potentially they only need to run down to the station when they know a train is due and passengers are booked to alight there.

The main cost is the installation of the live rail on the entire line between Leeds and York, but compared to overhead power its cheap, and the problems caused by the Bramhope Tunnel and Wharfedale Viaduct are easily overcome. The new station will also cost of course, and the link road to LBA, and any compulsory land purchase to enable it.

If ever this is going to happen this is going to be far and away the cheapest way to do it, and if this doesn't succeed, then in my view nothing will - at least not for a very long time

 

[bobleeds]

I fear I'm drifting off topic here, but I really don't see the credibility of the plan to introduce a hybrid third rail system and ex-district line stock.

Whilst the carriages would be refurbished, surely they must be already considered life-expired by their current owners at TFL otherwise they wouldn't be dumping them. We would end up with a totally non-standard Isle of Wight style line, incompatible with anything else, and requiring specialist maintenance teams for both motive power and electric supply.

In any event I understand the cost of the third rail infrastructure, would be little different to electrifying the line with conventional 25K overhead, (for which we already have maintenance staff for both infrastructure and train units) and the latter would allow direct electric trains to operate from London to Harrogate on the East Coast Route via either Leeds or York (or north to Newcastle and Edinburgh/Glasgow with a simple reverse of direction at York) as well as slotting in much better with plans to electrify the Leeds-Garforth-York and Trans-Pennine lines, and also providing an electrified Doncaster-Leeds-York Scotland alternative during times of maintenance or other disruption between Doncaster and York.

It would also allow through electric services (not necessarily with new stock - it could be cascaded from other regions) to operate beyond the current Leeds-Harrogate-York line (eg Doncaster-Leeds Harrogate York-Doncaster or Bradford Foster Square-Leeds-Knaresborough) or providing many opportunities to stop at a LBA Parkway facility, or the current Horsforth station which could possibly be connected to the airport up over the farmland by some people mover A-La Birmingham or Gatwick, or dare I say it a guided buslink.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I personally believe the project is a non starter in the form it is in. Although all the principles are, in theory, good.

White Heather - Cheap does not mean value for money. Gone are the days when we know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. It would be a completely non standard network in this country. All non standard networks have long been rid of. The policy of Network Rail and the DfT is to electrify with overhead unless it is connected to an existing third rail scheme. The only people who have made any noise about this whatsoever are business leaders in Harrogate. There has been virtually no comment from any of the responsible bodies or the government with regards to it. And, considering their cautious stance currently, thaqt can only be bad news. Any scheme has to be a benefit to the future. The stock in question is already life expired and would not be fit for a long life in Yorkshire. They must then be replaced. And there would be nothing to replace them with. It will be a mammoth challenge to get it off the ground.

Incidentally, as far as LBA is concerned, pre booked passengers are of little relevance to a courtesy bus as tickets on the rail network do not have to be pre booked. Anyone could turn up at any time. The bus would have to be frequent enough to make the use of the station plausible. It is no good having 6 trains an hour in each direction if the bus only comes every half an hour for example, as it is not providing any benefit over existing public transport. And this is why I use the term 'significant' when I talk about the input required from LBA.

 

[White Heather]

Well, I don't recall saying that cheap meant value for money, and all I was doing was relaying on to you guys the basis of the presentation given at the last consultative meeting, which was met with considerable enthusiasm by the majority - who were mainly councillors from the various local authorities, although for obvious reasons the councillor from Bradford had little to say.

As far as the rolling stock is concerned, there was no suggestion it was life expired. We were given the impression it had plenty of life left in it and that the trains were not particularly old. London Underground trains run for many years before being replaced anyway, and much of the stock on the District LIne seems relatively new. If it were life expired then it would be a waste of money, but I think we are guessing here - none of us really know.

As things were presented to us, the cost of the electrification with a 3rd rail is considerably cheaper than overhead cables, and there is nothing to pinch!! Apart form anything else, putting overhead cables through the Bramhope tunnel is probably very difficult and very problematic, whilst putting them across the likes of the Wharfedale, Crimple and Knaresborough viaducts would do little for the scenery and would no doubt result in huge outcry from the environmentalists.

I agree with everything you say regarding the advantages of normal electrification, but frankly I can't see it happening any time soon and it will certainly cost much more than the scheme that is being suggested now.

 

[Aviador]

If the line is ever improved to allow new rolling stock I do believe it would be possible to run a dual system using a third line and the overhead system. It would be possible to use the third line system on the sections that are known to be "problematic" such as the Arthington viaduct and tunnel. The entire cost of any upgrade using a dual system would be considerably cheaper and cost effective.

 

[User0001]

The beauty of Leeds city rail station is that it is central and at the crossroads to the whole of northern England. This is why it is the busiest station in England (possibly outside of London). Whether you are travelling from newcastle, middlesboro, hull, barnsley, doncaster, sheffield, huddersfield, manchester, liverpool etc etc and virtually every small town in the north, you know you can get to Leeds direct and in a relatively short time. It is also the only major station of the city unlike manchester etc which makes it less confusing when booking routes.

Add on a frequent 15 minute designated shuttle train that takes you almost to the airport perimeter and watch the passengers come (to use the growing number of low cost services).

The short coach hop from the airport station to the airport door would of course be included in the cost of the train ticket and in reality would only be the equivalent to travelling from a long stay carpark in the pick up bus as is done at most airports.

I know very little about trains and rolling stock etc but having a designated 'LBIA rail station that would be well run and publicised to everyone across the country would be amazingly successful in very little time in my opinion. The line is already in place, afterall.

Of course there will be lots of obstacles but Lbia rail station really should be pushed for by everyone connected with the city of leeds and especially the airport owners.

 

[Bigman]

Well as far as I can tell Southampton Airport Parkway, Luton Airport Parkway and East Midlands Airport Parkway seem to be successful, so why shouldn't we have one!!

 

[User0001]

East Midlands Airport Parkway seem to be successful

I beg to differ on EMA.

I've used it once, and you had to ring for a taxi to take you to EMA, as the bus doesn't seem to serve there any more.

The second time I used EMA, got off at Derby instead, where a very regular, cheap and bright yellow bus goes direct to EMA.

 

[News Guru]

[textarea]Councillor Paul Wadsworth calls for Leeds Bradford Airport to drop £2 'kiss and fly' tax

A £10,000 scheme to stop Leeds Bradford Airport traffic parking on nearby residential streets will simply move the problem to other areas, it is claimed.

The plans to keep roads free of parked cars along Victoria Avenue and Bayton Lane, in Yeadon, have been welcomed as good news for residents.

But Guiseley and Rawdon councillor Paul Wadsworth is concerned it will shift the problem into other areas.

The road restrictions have been given the go-ahead by council officers acting on delegated powers. They will be paid for with money given to the council by the airport.

Coun Wadsworth said: “Obviously, I’m pleased that this work is going to go ahead because it will make life that little bit easier for people living near the airport. What concerns me is the ripple effect, that the problem will simply be shunted from around Victoria Avenue to somewhere else in the airport’s surroundings, particularly in my ward of Guiseley and Rawdon.

“This scheme doesn’t solve the problem, it merely moves it around. The underlying problem is the airport’s insistence on continuing with the kiss and fly tax that penalises people for using the airport. The airport is paying the £10,000 cost of these works – why don’t they stop the £2 kiss and fly tax, then they wouldn’t have to shell out on schemes like this, because people could drive to the terminal building to drop off and pick up relatives without disturbing the local community.”

The so-called ‘kiss and fly’ tax was introduced this year and means there is a minimum £2 fee for anyone who wants to pick up or drop off friends and family outside the terminal. The airport has introduced a free drop-off service in the long-stay car parks, about half-a-mile from the terminal, and a shuttle bus takes passengers to the terminal and back.

An annual £25 subscription is also in place for taxi drivers to use the short-stay car park for up to 15 minutes at a time.

Source[/textarea]

 

[Aviador]

If the new restrictions simply mean yet more double yellow lines then it's a waste of money. The traffic wardens can't keep the roads clear that are already marked up with double yellows as it is so I can't imagine how painting more yellow lines will make the situation any better.

 

[User0001]

Very interesting move by National Express today.

They will operate a Leeds-Bradford-Manchester-Manchester Airport-Liverpool airport-Birkenhead coach.

Im surprised they couldn't be convinced to add in LBA to make an all round 'airport shuttle', but, at 10 times daily, it just makes it even easier and cheaper for Leeds passengers to get to MAN.

 

[michael]

If there's a timetable to keep to and it's simply point to point it will be interesting to see whether they use the M62 route or will they try M65, Colne, Skipton as an alternative - possibly quieter at rush hour (except coming into Colne)

 

[Aviador]

Maybe so but you have to be a die-hard to use a coach service to Manchester airport (or Liverpool for that matter) when you have say a two hour check-in window, with a potentially long onward flight on top and reliance on using the M62 which can be horrendous. Definately not my 'cup of tea'. Thanks, but no thank you.

 

[User0001]

Maybe so but you have to be a die-hard to use a coach service to Manchester airport (or Liverpool for that matter) when you have say a two hour check-in window, with a potentially long onward flight on top and reliance on using the M62 which can be horrendous. Definately not my 'cup of tea'. Thanks, but no thank you.

Obviously everyone is different, but, I have used a coach to get to LHR after visiting friends in Manchester once.

I can honestly, hand on heart say it was neither stressful, worrying, strenuous or expensive.

Coaches were clean, comfortable, modern, on time, spacious and reliable. Certainly would use again if need be and wouldn't hesitate recommending if people wanted a cheap alternative.

 

[lbaspotter]

By way you don't think Aviador and User001 that this should have be posted in the Manchester Airport forum instead?

As the way i read it, Its way off topic. This has nothing to do with Leeds/Bradford Airport road and rail access issues which this thread is titled. It would be more fitting in with the Manchester forum and thread titled "Road, Rail & Access Issues"

 

[User0001]

As the way i read it, Its way off topic

I wouldn't say its way off topic.

I asked a genuine question as to whether this service could have stopped off at LBA given it serves Leeds and Bradford, as I was under the impression LBA was between the 2 cities.

I was also raising the point that given rail travel is an issue for LBA, could National Express not have been persuaded to serve LBA from Leeds/Bradford and ultimately Manchester instead of giving the citizens of Leeds another excuse and option to use Manchester?

I see that access always seems to be a hot topic on here and a chance to add ease of access for those using public transport has passed LBA by.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I agree. It is not way off topic. It's not even slightly off topic. The thread title is Road, Rail & Access issues. This is an access issue.

Is the new route additional to the hourly Leeds - Manchester - Liverpool service? Or is it a replacement? In which case, serving LBA would make the route unviable. Indeed, serving LBA would be a push anyway. It would add a massive amount of time onto the route.

I have often thought about the possibility of National Express serving the airport and I just don't see how they could justify it. Aside from the fact that the airport only handles in the region of 3m pax, it is just too far out of the way. There are not enough pax to justify a direct service to from anywhere (a York service was not successful for example) and it is not on the way to anywhere. Except the Yorkshire Dales. If sheep find the need to use the airport we are laughing. The current bus services to LBA are underused despite being available to anyone along the length of the route.

Contrast that to Liverpool Airport which is pretty much on the way out of Liverpool to population centres to the South and East. You could argue that not enough people will alight at John Lennon and you would probably be right. But since it is on the way, they may as well.

 

[User0001]

It would add a massive amount of time onto the route

Having not used LBA, could someone tell me what time would be added to a journey between Leeds and Bradford if you went via LBA?

The reason I ask is that Luton is a good 5-10 minutes each way off the M1, and sometimes much longer if you get stuck in traffic on the ridiculous road system they have. National express have no problem adding to the journey by turning off the M1, trundle up to Luton, sometimes only let 1-2 people off and trundle back down the same road to the M1 and join said road again. Therefore, doing the same at LBA might not be totally off the agenda.

There are not enough pax to justify a direct service to from anywhere (a York service was not successful for example) and it is not on the way to anywhere

Well, given the new coach route is 10 times daily, I was thinking that just 1 or 2 services a day serve LBA. Again, referring back to my LTN example, the Manchester-London coaches are every hour, but, only 2 of those stop at LTN.

In these times of low cost DIY packages, maybe cheap coach travel from the surrounding cities could help LBA. Up till now, people probably disliked public transport as they didn't want to lug their suitcases around. Much of this is still true, but, when many are now going with hand luggage only to cities such as Krakow and Dusseldorf to avoid Ryanair baggage charges, maybe public transport is no longer as daunting as once thought.

 

[lbaspotter]

Hi

If you ran Leeds to Airport via Kirkstall Road and Horsforth (A65) it normally takes about 30 mins on a good off-peak journey by car. At peak time you could add at least another 15 mins to that time due to the traffic that runs down the A65.
The quickest route running from Airport to Bradford would be via Rawdon and Greengates (A658) which takes about 25 mins at off-peak. With Traffic at Peak-time you can add at least another good 10 mins or so.

So to travel from Leeds Coach Station to Bradford Interchange running via the Leeds/Bradford Airport you looking at a journey time off about 1 hour at off peak without traffic by a coach. But if you did the same route at peak-time traffic levels you would be looking at a journey time off about 1 hour 30 mins at least...


Looking at the bus timetables using that same route as I mention above it look like my predictions could be about right as the 757 service which runs from Leeds to the Airport takes 38 mins off peak and 43 mins at peak time. Meanwhile the 747 service which runs from the Airport to Bradford takes 38 mins at of peak and 50 mins at peaktime.

But you could drop quite a bit off that running time due to National Express coaches running non-stop and direct. The local airport buses have to call at all stops along the route and have to go around the houses in the case of the 747 service going round Yeadon and Guiseley. Also the airport buses have to take longer routes around both the city centres of Leeds and Bradford to get to there respective terminus's.

Hope that helps.