Cardiff Airport - General Thread

[Foxlimayankee]

The airport is firmly under WG control...that was made clear in the inside the airport documentary.

Welsh government need to be held to account. Therefore it’s difficult not to make a discussion about an airport owned by a government political. Just because we are all aviation fans it doesn’t mean what is also a government entity should be allowed to go on wasting and wasting hundreds of millions of tax payers cash.

Welsh government don’t have a very good track record of successful projects and now Cardiff Airport is sadly being added to that list. I was very pleased initially (back in 2013?) that the airport was going to be purchased by the government but has now become a tax payer black hole with an anti business first minister at the helm.

The Airport is run by the same senior management that were running it before the WG owned, albeit with a few changes at the top over recent years. The WG have a say but ultimately it is still being run by experts, not politicians.

The fortunes of CWL over the past decade are nothing to do with how its been run. It's simply bad luck, Airlines going bust, economic downturn and a global pandemic. The efficency of CWL has been vastly improved along with many different projects and attempts to cut costs and diversify.

 

[Nigel B]

it’s utterly unacceptable the amount of cash the airport is burning through. Over £150 million of tax payers cash gone. And it will continue.

ignore covid and it was losing money before. Welsh government incompetence as per usual mismanaging things.

 

[Nigel B]

The airport has spent many millions on much needed improvements, do you not accept that the main building is nearly fifty years old
How much has been spent on BRS in the last decade? Liam Fox may have some influence in promoting BRS. (still think its like a cattle market ).
Money has to be spent in the short term just to keep CWL able to try and attract airlines.
If CWL could get back a good proportion of the approximately 2 million passengers per year from the S Wales area that used BRS
before covid, then it could start to gain momentum in attracting other carriers.
Money has to be spent for the long term not just now in these financially uncertain times.

 

[Jerry]

With reference to holding the Welsh government and Cardiff Airport to account, the airports senior management do end up in front of a Senedd committee and yes the members a lot don't have aviation expertise but it does mean that the airport and government have an organisation that does go through their basic finances and what they need the money for. The airport have always had to put a business plan forward for any money so i expect it'll be that'll be the same for the last lot of money.

 

[Jerry]

In other news Cardiff airport has teamed up with Nuffield Health to provide Covid19 testing.

Cardiff Airport - Freedom of Information FOI – CWL

The official Cardiff Airport website for live flight information, news, airport parking, offers, booking flights & holidays.

www.cardiff-airport.com

 

[TheLocalYokel]

The Airport is run by the same senior management that were running it before the WG owned, albeit with a few changes at the top over recent years. The WG have a say but ultimately it is still being run by experts, not politicians.

The fortunes of CWL over the past decade are nothing to do with how its been run. It's simply bad luck, Airlines going bust, economic downturn and a global pandemic. The efficency of CWL has been vastly improved along with many different projects and attempts to cut costs and diversify.

Other airports suffered from economic downturns and loss of airlines too of course. Look no further than Exeter. It was almost completely in thrall to Flybe for its scheduled services. Yet since it was sold into the private sector in 2007, partially at first, it seems to have succeeded. It handles fewer passengers than CWL so the disproportionate nature of fixed costs that is one of CWL's burdens might be even more pronounced at EXT.

We know that Abertis/AENA all but gave up on CWL in the years before the WG bought the airport. The question is why? CWL serves a capital city. If EXT could offer a return to the private sector why could not CWL?

An answer might well lie with the owners and senior management in the late 1980s and 1990s. My belief is that they thought that a capital city airport would sell itself. They failed to take note of the changing market and before they knew it were playing catchup, and have been ever since.

The airport has spent many millions on much needed improvements, do you not accept that the main building is nearly fifty years old
How much has been spent on BRS in the last decade? Liam Fox may have some influence in promoting BRS. (still think its like a cattle market ).
Money has to be spent in the short term just to keep CWL able to try and attract airlines.

Liam Fox does not support further growth at BRS. He formally objected at that airport's local authority expansion planning hearing 15 months ago. Bristol City Council and the city's elected mayor have also done an about-turn and now oppose BRS's appeal to the Planning Inspectorate, as do Bath and North East Somerset and North Somerset councils. The only councils in the Greater Bristol area currently supporting the appeal are the West of England Combined Authority and South Gloucestershire council. The results of next month's local elections could see further diminution of support. So BRS has no high profile political figure with influence at Westminster promoting its case.

Over the past 25 years probably over £400 million (at today's values) has been ploughed into infrastructure and other expansion/improvements with the current owner intent on spending a lot more if allowed to by the planners and government aviation policy which seems to be changing to accommodate a more vigorous attack on climate change.

The difference between CWL and BRS is that one has a public sector owner using tax payers' money to sustain a loss-making airport and the other is a profitable private sector airport (at least it was pre-pandemic) whose owner invests in order to increase profits and raise the value of the fixed asset. BRS does have a very significant amount of debt, something that was manageable in normal times within the overall profitability of the airport. It remains to be seen what economic damage the pandemic has done to BRS. Its Canadian owner has 220 billion dollars of net assets so BRS is a very small part of that operation.

If BRS loses its planning appeal, as seems increasingly likely given the government's change of tack, its owner will have some important decisions to make.

If CWL could get back a good proportion of the approximately 2 million passengers per year from the S Wales area that used BRS
before covid, then it could start to gain momentum in attracting other carriers.
Money has to be spent for the long term not just now in these financially uncertain times.

The 1.5 millon/2 million (take your choice according to the source) people who use BRS each year with starting point or final destination in South Wales are of course passenger journeys, not individual passengers. Most people fly return journeys and some more than one return journey in a year, so it means that if CWL could recapture half a million people it would equate to more than a million extra annual 'passengers' at the airport.

Still not an easy task, and CWL has been trying to do something along these lines right through this century (CAA surveys show that in 2007 when CWL handled 2.1 million passengers, over 700,000 'Welsh' passengers still used BRS). It's partly to do with critical mass on thinner routes. BRS with its larger core catchment and ability to draw from both CWL and EXT catchments is much better positioned to take advantage.

I can empathise with aviatorconcorde about the use of tax payers' money. My interest in aviation only really began in the 1970s as an aggrieved Bristol local tax payer (or rates as we called them then). I'd never been interested in aviation then and, as I still do, I regarded an airport as a local facility like a bus station or shopping centre. I'm not a spotter or someone who thinks of his local airport in the way that some people support their favourite football team.

So I was less than pleased that some of my money was going to prop up what was then a loss-making and insignificant airport. When I flew in those days it was rarely from BRS (there weren't many flights then anyway), and usually from London which I still regard and use as my long-haul departure point. Unlike some I didn't call for BRS's closure but certainly empathised with that view at the time.

Thanks to some very kind and patient people at various levels in the industry I've managed down the years since the 1970s to gain a very basic knowledge of airport and airline economics, but many things still puzzle me as an outsider, one being how a capital city airport allowed itself to be so comprehensively outmanoeuvred by a postage stamp-size airport with a ski-jump runway sitting on top of a mist-laden hill with no rail connectivity and challenging road links.

 

[Foxlimayankee]

Other airports suffered from economic downturns and loss of airlines too of course. Look no further than Exeter. It was almost completely in thrall to Flybe for its scheduled services. Yet since it was sold into the private sector in 2007, partially at first, it seems to have succeeded. It handles fewer passengers than CWL so the disproportionate nature of fixed costs that is one of CWL's burdens might be even more pronounced at EXT.

Which is a very good point TLY. I'm not really familiar with the runnings and performance of EXT. EXT has however had a consistent offering from Flybe, along with a maintenance base. Not sure if Flybe HQ was actually part of EXT or what the private jet demand is like?
The difference I see with CWL, especially with the domestic market is inconsistency for its passengers, especially those using Flybe over the past decade or so, with many no doubt deferring to BRS, whereas EXT appears have to maintained a good following, until the demise of Flybe, that were also willing to pay a higher price as can be seen by Loganairs CEOs comments about EXT having better yields.
I'm still however of the belief that the offering from CWL to the likes of EDI and DUB to chase higher frequency and convenience over lower frequency and better yield had a negative impact on both of those routes.

CWL has also seen growth and shrinkage, then growth and shrinkage again over the past 15 years meaning it would have to expand its staff and facilities offering then shrink again. There's also been a lot of investment, especially for QRs arrival amongst other things.
What would be good to see is a breakdown of what investment has gone into CWL in the form of terminal/airfield investment, marketing investment for Airlines and any other additional funding thats gone into CWL and its wider business to get it to where it is. Which I very much doubt we will actually see in the public domain.
Only then I think we can get a true picture of the goings on at CWL, as in how much loss would it be making without all of that expenditure on the balance sheet?

 

[Nigel B]

Extract of Liam Fox letter regarding BRS expansion beyond 10million pax per year.



85% of Bristol airport passengers come by road transport. Figures produced by the airport show the following regional distribution for its passengers: West of England 35%, South Wales 20%, Devon 14%, Somerset 10%, Gloucestershire 7%, Wiltshire 7%, Cornwall 5%, Dorset 2%.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Which is a very good point TLY. I'm not really familiar with the runnings and performance of EXT. EXT has however had a consistent offering from Flybe, along with a maintenance base. Not sure if Flybe HQ was actually part of EXT or what the private jet demand is like?
The difference I see with CWL, especially with the domestic market is inconsistency for its passengers, especially those using Flybe over the past decade or so, with many no doubt deferring to BRS, whereas EXT appears have to maintained a good following, until the demise of Flybe, that were also willing to pay a higher price as can be seen by Loganairs CEOs comments about EXT having better yields.

Devon does lose a lot of passengers to Bristol Airport. Nigel B shows Bristol Airport's own projections re origin/final destination of its passengers - see below link. Over the years the passenger figures vary as the annual totals change but the percentage is broadly 10%-15% as a percentage of BRS's annual passenger traffic.

Extract of Liam Fox letter regarding BRS expansion beyond 10million pax per year.



85% of Bristol airport passengers come by road transport. Figures produced by the airport show the following regional distribution for its passengers: West of England 35%, South Wales 20%, Devon 14%, Somerset 10%, Gloucestershire 7%, Wiltshire 7%, Cornwall 5%, Dorset 2%.

The CAA passenger surveys don't include CWL and BRS every year but these airports were included in the 2019 survey. They show that 1.695 million of BRS's annual passengers originated or terminated in Wales. The previous CAA passenger survey that included CWL and BRS was in 2015 when 1.234 million 'Welsh' passengers used BRS.

Obviously surveys are no more than snapshots but in general terms they probably paint a reasonably accurate picture.

A positive indicator for CWL is that in 2019 76,000 passengers using the airport originated/terminated in South West England compared with 35,000 in the 2015 survey. This shows a growth of over 100% in South West England passengers whereas CWL's overall passenger numbers were up by around 45% between 2015 and 2019, ergo South West England is making a growing contribution to CWL's passenger figures both in percentage terms and in actual numbers.

It's likely that Qatar Airways was responsible for a substantial part of this South West England growth which, if that is the case, shows how important it is to get the airline back at CWL as quickly as possible. A lot of passengers, especially leisure travellers, are creatures of habit and if they become used to using CWL with Qatar some might use the airport with other airlines if their experience is a good one.

I notice you describe BRS as a 'cattle market'. It can be a bit like that at times especially in the morning rush with over 30 departures in the first two hours of the day in summer, so if CWL can provide a more user-friendly environment it will undoubtedly attract some people who might have used BRS. I've posted before that near neighbours of ours once used CWL for Malaga when for some reason they could not get the flight they wanted at BRS. They were happy with their experience and thereafter used CWL for several years even though they could have flown from BRS, just nine miles away by road.

It's probably not unique to CWL/BRS but there is clear evidence to show that usually when a new route occurs at CWL it doesn't seem to affect BRS's passenger numbers to the same destination. This would indicate that many of the passengers on the new CWL route are themselves 'new', which again is a positive sign as it suggests a substantial reservoir of potential passengers wanting to fly locally but not from an airport further afield.

An aviation analyst giving evidence to a WG committee in the past two years said that in CWL's case an annual throughput of two million passengers removes much of the disproportionality associated with the airport's fixed costs. CWL would probably have reached that total this year had the pandemic not arisen.

 

[aviatorconcorde]

The Airport is run by the same senior management that were running it before the WG owned, albeit with a few changes at the top over recent years. The WG have a say but ultimately it is still being run by experts, not politicians.

The fortunes of CWL over the past decade are nothing to do with how its been run. It's simply bad luck, Airlines going bust, economic downturn and a global pandemic. The efficency of CWL has been vastly improved along with many different projects and attempts to cut costs and diversify.

I’m seriously considering voting Abolish the Welsh assembly party, not because i want the welsh assembly abolished, but in protest at the waste and continued incompetence that’s going on from the assembly currently.

 

[Nigel B]

Boris Johnson....say no more. lets keep this an aviation forum

 

[geoff]

As Jersey is prepared to welcome Welsh visitors, I wonder if the airport could persuade one of the Jersey tour operators to put on charters from CWL twice weekly say Wednesday and Saturday, with a 50 seat aircraft, I think Jersey is going to be very popular this summer. CWL has had many Jersey charters in the past, mainly by Premier Travel and CI Travel service.

 

[Jerry]

As Jersey is prepared to welcome Welsh visitors, I wonder if the airport could persuade one of the Jersey tour operators to put on charters from CWL twice weekly say Wednesday and Saturday, with a 50 seat aircraft, I think Jersey is going to be very popular this summer. CWL has had many Jersey charters in the past, mainly by Premier Travel and CI Travel service.

I think that's one route which could take a long time to return as there's only really one option and that's Blue Islands.

 

[KARFA]

As Jersey is prepared to welcome Welsh visitors, I wonder if the airport could persuade one of the Jersey tour operators to put on charters from CWL twice weekly say Wednesday and Saturday, with a 50 seat aircraft, I think Jersey is going to be very popular this summer. CWL has had many Jersey charters in the past, mainly by Premier Travel and CI Travel service.

It's an attractive destination now. All areas in the UK are classified green, amber, or red. As long as you have only stayed overnight in green areas in the last 14 days you only have to do a free test on arrival at JER and self isolate until the result is texted to you a few hours later.

Government of Jersey

Find out the latest travel advice and what you need to do when you arrive in Jersey

www.gov.je

No self isolation when you return, and no need for a pre-arrival test or post arrival day 2&8 tests.

 

[fly4gigs]

Some terrible takes on here.

 

[Jerry]

"Cardiff Airport: What political parties in Wales plan to do about it"

Each political party has its say on the future of Cardiff Airport

The Welsh Government has ploughed millions of pounds into the airport - what does its future hold?

t.co

The gist of the article is that the right wing parties want to sell it and the left wing parties keep in public ownership but only Plaid Cymru put specific plans about it in their manifesto.
Interestingly AWAP seem to suggest local government ownership as an option without realising that their money comes from the Welsh government.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Some terrible takes on here.

If I'm being a bit thick please accept my apologies but I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

As far as I know there is no planning cap on passenger numbers through CWL but does anyone know the realistic maximum through the current facilities? I had an idea there was talk of a new terminal or at least an upgrade of the existing one when passenger numbers reached a certain level but I can't recall the detail.

 

[Nuffsaid]

If I recall, the previous management had stated that knocking through a few walls would allow for 3.5million to pass through the existing terminal.

 

[Jerry]

As far as I know there is no planning cap on passenger numbers through CWL but does anyone know the realistic maximum through the current facilities? I had an idea there was talk of a new terminal or at least an upgrade of the existing one when passenger numbers reached a certain level but I can't recall the detail.

I think it's about 3 million passengers a year it has capacity for.
The Masterplan mentions a new terminal. Whether that'll happen?